Author: Tamara Harris
Published: April 11, 2004
Tool: [ email ]
Helen Little is a music lover and an industry veteran who has worn many hats in her path of successes. She is the co-chairman of Dangerous Entertainment who manages such artists as Dice Raw and Kenli. As a consultant Dreamworks and Def Jam have called on her services.
Her membership in the Philadelphia chapter of NARAS is the carriage she uses to take her knowledge and educate young people about the twists and turns of music in the commercial matrix Billboard named her Program Director of the Year in her radio journey, which, at one point landed her working side by side with the legendary Frankie Crocker. Her major status in the industry has not gone unnoticed by her Black peers either. The National Black Programmer's Coalition also awarded her Program Director of the Year in addition to several other organizations. RuffNation/Warner Brother Records was lucky to have her as the president of US Operations. But behind the job titles and praise is someone who chose to take her love of music and make a commitment to nurturing the artist in the creative sphere and in the marketplace. Ms. Little wants nothing more than for the people she works with to see their dream realized because it is the pith of her professional desires. In this lengthy interview Ms. Little tells her story and gives her thoughts on various parts of the industry that many of us ponder in our music obsessions and our ambivalence towards the industry.
Q. How did you develop your love for music?
Little: It was like a part of my family a part of my childhood. I was not so much a part of a musical family in that it was the business we did. Everybody for the most part played an instrument. Everybody had a specific interest. Everybody had different musical taste. My parents had a record collection when I was very young and I used to love to flip through it and I loved music. It really started from the earliest age of 3. Completely taken by it a love affair so to speak.
Q. What kinds of stuff did you enjoy growing up?
Little: Ummmmmm I had the benefit of older sisters and brothers. They all listened to something different so I listened to everything from Motown sounds, Hendrix, Steppenwolf to Miles Davis and John Coltrane. To Steve Lawrence and Edie Gorme. To Classical music to gospel music and pop music. It was all very much a part of my life.
Q. Did you play an instrument as well?
Little: I played piano, clarinet for years which I was actually pretty good at but I was not good at piano. I taught myself how to play guitar and I don't play that well either.
Q. So how did you end up on the more business side of things in addition to the radio hosting versus being a musician?
Little: Well probably because I sucked at being a musician!!! (laughs.) Like I said I was good at playing the clarinet but I just didn't think it was a hip instrument that I wanted to involve myself with. My passion was listening to the radio because it was a constant source of music for me. I didn't watch a lot of television as a child. I listened to the radio nonstop. When I went to college I had actually been singing a girlfriend and I in high school would play like Kiwanis meetings you know rotary clubs she'd play guitar and I'd sing.
Q. What kind of music were you doing?
Little: More folk type Neil Young, Roberta Flack we'd do "Killing Me Softly" stuff like that. Anything that she could play on the guitar we would sing.
Q. So when did you start buying your own music?
Little: I started buying music as soon as I got my own money. The first album that my parents bought for me was Gene Autry. I like country music as well. Being from North Carolina there was a lot of it there. So um when I went to college I pretty much realized I'm not going to be a singer. I had an interest in sleep and dreams. And I was a psychology major and that was too hard (laughs.) I was like this is not me and I wanted to have fun so I switched my major to radio and television and was fortunate to get a job at a local radio station. And that's where I got my start kind of like in the music business. While I was doing that I was also a part of a girl's acapella vocal group in college. I would write a lot of the arrangements for the group. I can write but I can't play it! I followed the radio career path for 18 years along the way I took classes in studio recording techniques. I've worked in record stores and time to time I would lend my voice to background vocals on local projects that people were working on. Music was always at the front of what I was doing.
Q. How did you end up focusing on urban music having had such a wide background of tastes?
Little: My parents were strict about grammar and diction. They wanted you to sound intelligent when you opened your mouth. I didn't get it at the time but I parlayed that into a career. When I started working in radio I started at an adult contemporary station. And I would ask them how come you don't play this song or that song? They said well that's not in our format we're primarily trying to focus on this kind of music. The way I naturally sounded they felt was a fit for the radio station. So I went from there to a Top-40 station and a country station. Then I wanted to work in Black radio. I put my tapes together took it to the program director and the guy told me I sounded too "white." I'm like excuse me what does "white" sound like? I was like do I have to sound like dis? Needless to say I didn't get the job but I made my point and he knew it. It took me a long time to get into Black radio for about five years before I ever got a shot. I was in sales I wasn't on the air.
Q. When you did get your shot what was it like working with someone like Frankie Crocker?
Little: Oh it was great. It had its ups and downs because we definitely both had strong personalities. He didn't know me and I didn't know him and at first it was like Ok I really don't care about knowing you. And he didn't really care about knowing me. But as we worked closer together we realized the one passion we shared well two music and champagne. It turned out to be a really great experience. He had phenomenal history to share with me. I had energizing insight to share with him. It became a friendship after we got through all the initial struggles in the beginning. I was doing middays in New York at WBLS they took me off the midday show to do afternoons with him. I was like I don't wanna do that. '94-96. We worked together doing the teen show and it was a lot of fun. We would go hang out and then when I left to come to Philadelphia he was congratulatory and very supportive. And we stayed in touch after I moved here.
Q. Having worn so many hats in the music industry what would you say is the real difference in radio now today versus when you first started listening to it and got involved in it?
Little: When I first started listening to it I didn't understand the mechanics of it. It was just about the music and the passion. Once I got on the inside and learned about how it worked it became more fascinating to me. But the biggest difference is the first radio station I worked for the owner had an office in the building. He owned a couple different radio stations not like it is now. So what it became in my last position was you know I was a number on a piece of paper with thousands of people and the owner lived in Texas and he would never know who I was. So that's the biggest difference the amount of stations that are owned by one company.
Q. Having worked for Clear Channel you really know that and how does that affect what we hear?
Little: I think it affects it in a non-creative way. Because the difference is that you had tons of creative minds and tons of different markets, tons of different sizes of markets doing things the way they wanted to do. It might have been best at every market but it was done the way you felt it should be. Now it's a lot more homogenized and that started before ownership laws changed I think it became where you would get on a plane and go to L.A. and you would hear this in L.A. and say we should do this in New York. And then all of sudden you got 18 Hots and 24 Powers yadda yadda yadda.
Q. Knowing what you know and now having Dangerous Entertainment when you're talking to artists about making them successful how do you make marketing decisions and what kinds of decisions are you making?
Little: Gotta have hit music period. At the end of the day if you've got a hit song you know you don't have any issues. So being that I spent a good portion of my career picking hit music for radio I have an ear for it. Something that appeals to a large amount of people. Now every single artist because the artists I work with are in different genres of music everybody's not gonna have that big mass appeal. You wanna appeal to your core target where they absolutely love you and they become a long-term fanbase where they buy your music year after year after year.
Q. What constitutes a hit?
Little: The fact that people want to hear it and two like it. When your check depends on it you tend to figure it out (laughs.) At a station you get hundreds of CD's a day. So you sit down and it's really more about as opposed to good, better and best but does it compete with what's already there. I put this record on and I see how the audience is reacting. I'm listening to this new song I haven't put on yet now competitively speaking does this have the same shot to get the same type of reaction that this one does. And are you 100 percent? No. Sometimes you're the first person to play a record sometimes you're the last. Sometimes it's about relationships sometimes it's about the relationship with the artist. It's a lot harder if you have a relationship with an artist and you're working at a radio station it's harder to get their product on your desk and not want to help them succeed.
Q. Do you feel the industry is more concerned with hits now than say another era?
Little: Definitely. Because record companies and radio stations are publicly traded companies and they have shareholders that they have to report to and provide information and show growth in the money they have invested in. The focus is not so much on art and creativity as it may have been in regard to attract advertisers because listeners are fascinated by your product. It's more about ok at the end of this quarter we have to show them what we've done. So in order to get to that point you know we needed to develop some sort of formula that is going to accomplish that goal. It was also before we were more of a global society you really just served your immediate community. And you served your immediate community with music and information that was immediate to that community. You were more apt to find local artists on the radio in certain markets because there was still a place for them. I don't know necessarily if in a small market you got that opportunity. But definitely in places the size of Philadelphia, Miami or Atlanta that you could get a shot on the radio. We're talking '60s and '70s maybe. As we become more global I think it became less about the intimate relationship with the listener and the radio station. Because they became less intimate as well. When you're thinking about competing with a person's time all the different options they have there's always been recorded music on CD, vinyl, cassette, 8-track whatever. But now there's also videos, there's always been television now there's more than just television there's cable, there's satellite. Now there's XM and Sirius, and Musichoice and video games and movies. There's so many different things to do with your time and attention and the computer. It's a challenge to really find that loyal listener and that loyal consumer to keep them interested in your product. I think you have to be more niche-oriented. It used to be you could turn on the radio and hear country music, rock music, r and b music and pop music and maybe even some Spanish music all on the same radio station. Now it's like a mall with specialty shops. That's what radio stations have become you only get hip-hop or rock and then they get even more specialized well this is adult urban and this is mainstream urban and this is rap. It's become more niche-oriented to try to get at least an audience that's gonna be interested in your product and spend a fair amount of time with it.
Q. What's interesting about that is when I cut on my radio I'm only hearing 40 songs a day and why is that?
Little: Because the average person first of all the time that they spend with the radio isn't as long as you would think it is. And it varies by format so when they come to you they want to hear their favorite song. That attention span is gone as soon as you put something on they're not interested in hearing. They go to the next station or I guess the next medium. The reason for the short playlist is if you're only gonna listen for an hour anyway you're not going to hear that song anyway. So the shorter list increases that chance of them hearing the song when they come to you. When people say they want variety and you can play I'm talking more of a young format not an oldies format.
Q. What about listener feedback if more people were to call in?
Little: Who has time to call in? Most radio stations use call out research and they call a listener they rate what you feel about the song. That's how they get most of their information. The request lines have a little to do with it because you don’t know who's calling. You call out you're calling the people you're trying to attract.
Q. How much does marketing contribute to the success of an artist? Does it affect things like Grammies or making it to radio?
Little: I think it depends on the artist. Grammies are picked by peers. That's a peer award members of NARAS. You have to be a member of NARAS you have to have a certain amount of credits on an album in a variety of different ways.
Q. Is it fair to make the argument that certain artists who will appear on the major video channels and area heard on radio are more apt to gain a grammy because of their relationships with certain people for example the Clive Davis's of the world?
Little: That's kind of awash, just as Clive Davis has clout so does Lyor Cohen his artists are nominated so are Clive Davis's artists nominated and on and on and on. But they're nominated by a voting body with a membership that pays dues to be a part of an organization that has to have x-amount of credit to be a voting. So it's not just like the general public because that's all they've seen with the Grammies. It's not intricate but it's a process where you send your stuff in and I'd like to be nominated you have access to go listen if you are a voting member. You know what I think this deserves a nomination, nominations are made and you make your votes, the votes are tallied and that's what they tell us. It's not the general public that make the decisions. And It's not even music industry that makes the decisions it's music industry with a membership at NARAS that has credits and are voting members. I'm not a voting member because I don't have enough credits. I'm an associate member so I don't even vote.
Q. What do you do as an associate member?
Little: I participate in the educational aspect of NARAS. I help in their causes one of the causes they have is Musicares. The foundation that helps musicians that need money. But more so on the educational end of it is where my interest lies. I'll speak on panels and serve on the board of governors, which helps come up with ideas and programs to further music in Philadelphia.
Q. When you go out into the schools what kinds of things are you telling the kids?
Little: We talk about the business aspect of it. One thing I like to tell people is what you see on TV is a small portion of how extensive this business is. That person standing there with that video needed someone to shoot the video, someone to do the hair, someone to write the song. [They needed someone to manage their money, someone to put the record out, someone to promote the record someone to market the record. It's a hundred different ways to come into this business. You don't have to be able to dance or sing.
Q. Are there some artists who are not marketable?
Little: The only thing that's not marketable is a true lack of talent. You gotta have some talent even if heart is your talent.
Q. Where do you think urban music is at right now?
Little: I think it's mainstream and I think it's been mainstream. I think Motown was mainstream. I feel like what Chuck Berry did in the '50s was mainstream. What Duke Ellington did in the '40s was mainstream. I think it's always been mainstream it's just easy to put a label on it.
Q. What is urban music and what's the "urban" in urban marketing?
Little: I didn't pick the label that's in my opinion it's about relationships, relationships with the people that you have to get to help support that project. If I'm gonna go into a small independent record store and it's a Black-owned store. And the primary consumer is a Black consumer it helps to have an idea of what that world is like. I'm gonna go into a radio station and present an artist to them and the program director and the staff and the listeners more so are African-American it's that you have to have that knowledge but, I think it comes down to relationships in being able to relate to the audience relate to the product relate to the people working there. Anyone can relate that chooses to relate but I think that's where that stems from.
Q. Is urban marketing any different from marketing any other genre of music?
Little: It's not so much about urban marketing it's about marketing an urban music to an urban audience to an urban retailer. Is there a difference between marketing Missy for example to a pop audience and an urban audience? Yeah there is a slight difference. The urban audience has a tendency to want to know about it first. If it doesn't succeed there chances are it doesn't do as well in the mainstream unless you're going directly after the mainstream. Most artists that are Black or urban artists that have mainstream success usually start in Black radio or Black retail. Usually not always depending on the sound.
Q. Are there more differences you can point out?
Little: Money. There's a lot more money to market to the general public pop market. Although the costs more people involved in the process. The marketing costs in regard to whether or not you're gonna do outdoor advertising, television and etc. it all costs.
Q. Are there certain things unique to urban marketing?
Little: The mixed tape and creating a credible street vibe.
Q. How does that work out with all the copyright stuff?
Little: In regard to mixed tapes it's a strange animal. Because it's something that it desired but something that is not fully worked out in a way that makes the most sense for everybody. Because you have artists that give away music and to a mixer who puts it on a tape and they sell it but they don't give the artist their piece of it. They provide a service to the artist and the artist doesn't seem to mind that's one part of it but it really doesn't flush right.
Q. Who are you listening to now that you enjoy?
Little: Sarah Mclachlan, Josh Kelly, I'm listening to old music too. Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Jason Moran, my artist Dice Raw all my artists I can't get enough of them. I like Beyonce's album, I like Jay-Z's album. Alicia Keys and Outkast and Hank Williams.
Q. When you consult with other companies and even your own Dangerous Entertainment how do you choose a course of marketing? What kinds of decisions are you making to ensure the success of an artist?
Little: Sometimes marketing and consulting isn't with an artist like I'm working with a skatepark that wants to bring music into the skate park. We're helping them develop everything that makes sense for marketing music to the skater community. I got a call from someone who's managing an artist and doesn't have a lot of experience and needs to learn. First thing we can't even get to marketing we got to teach you how to manage. Sometimes it's just about can you help me get radio play? Or sometimes it's about can you help me with my songs because we know you have experience picking out the best songs for radio. It's like what's your need if I can fulfill it I can if I can't I can't I'll tell them. The marketing might not be the artist it may be the label or the skills of the manager. It may be the song to the radio station.
Q. Can you give me one tip on how to get someone to radio?
Little: Give me a hit. Period because that's my background, that's my reputation and I'm not gonna take something that I wouldn't put on myself. If I wouldn't put that on the radio why would I ask somebody else to?
Q. What kinds of tips do you give these up and coming artists as well as the established ones on how to get success and keep it?
Little: That this is a business and you have to work. And to be disciplined in that process and to learn about the business you're in. Be a part of your own success. Show-up take it seriously and want more than I want it. I've got a career I'm good.
Q. Where do you see pop music going?
Little: I think the blues has a real potential to be interesting to kids. Joss Stone that's another album I didn't mention. And Robert Randolph phenomenal I love him. There's another artist coming out on Warner Bros. Lela James who's got the blues in her soul. She is phenomenal no holds barred hands down one of the most unique artists I've ever heard. Her voice is just tremendous and as more artists like her and Robert Randolph become a part of the mainstream I think there's gonna be an interest in the blues. I think artists like Norah Jones have helped give people another idea of what popular music is. I'm not gonna say it's gonna be as big as rap but I think it's gonna have more of a place.
Q. Do you think that the video age did anything to the music industry?
Little: Yeah costs more (laughs.) And honestly it made it a lot more visible. Music is now a visual medium. You know people now want to see it. When I was a kid we heard it.
Q. Do you feel that has been more of a positive a negative a balance or what?
Little: It depends on what you define as positive and negative. I suppose a lot of artists would not have been exposed. It exposed a whole industry of creative producers, directors, and talent in the video world. It created a whole new line of jobs, networks. It opened up a lot of doors.
Q. I've heard many artists say that if you don't succeed visually what you've done with audio could be overlooked.
Little: Well I think part of it was in the '60s you would buy an album by Nancy Wilson and she wouldn't be on the cover a white couple would be on the cover. It used to be with Black music they would put white couples on the cover cause that's who they were selling the music to. Now what has come around is you don't have to be the itty bitty skinny longhaired singer that can dance type to get a deal and sell records. Jill Scott is a perfect example.
Q. What time period do you think this came in?
Little: I think it's new. I think it's just beginning. Still think image is important but it's not the most important thing. If you got hits and you can perform live you know they can slap a little bit of makeup on you and a nice dress they can market you.
Q. Are there certain images of women preferred?
Little: No because I know if you are a 33-year old balding male that your shot ain't as good either even though you're talented. There was always photos of the band. And was always better if you had the sexy look than if you didn't. Elvis Presley was big about image pre-video. I think it's about people having something to sell right now because people aren't buying. Just great music if we get back to that give me something that I can give to people.
Q. Why do you feel people aren't buying music as much now?
Little: There's a lot to spend your money on is part of it. I think we went through a period in the music industry where we didn't put our best foot forward and it was song-driven not artist development driven. You know karma is real.
Q. How are you dealing with that since you have your own company?
Little: I'm not taking it in there until the songs are developed, the live performances is good, you've built a fanbase you recorded your own record. Not in every single case but that's the strategy. I want you to be a part of this process. Don't give me three demos and expect me to walk into a label and get you signed because labels don't sign like that. Right now most of them do research and they want to know that you can get radio play on your own. They want to know that you can sell records on your own. They're looking for somebody who's already doing it. That way they don't have to take a big risk. There's an artist that just got signed to Sony Goapele from the Bay Area. And I think she sold somewhere near 60,000 records on her own. That is unbelievable. She built a fanbase she worked it. I'm assuming the reason she worked as long as she did, she didn't need anybody else's money. When you're selling like that you can make a living. It all depends on the individual goal of each artist. Some artists want a mansion and yacht. Some artists just don't want to have to sit behind a desk and work on a computer.
Q. I've heard some people say as far as BET and bigger places are concerned that if you don't have the gangsta rap image you're not gonna be as successful.
Little: I don't think it's gangsta I think more of it is about flossing.
Q. I've heard artists tell me that because they didn't have a certain image things weren't making it.
Little: Well then why are The Roots successful? Why are the Black Eyed Peas doing as well as they're doing. Why do Nappy Roots have a platinum album? Why is Mos Def hot? They're successful because they put out good music.
Q. So what you are saying is that that artist I spoke with has a narrow mind because you shouldn't rely on BET and the like for your music information because it is just one corner of the world?
Little: Basically. It's a big corner but that's not the only corner. One of the things that really bothers me about the urban arena is the lack of the ability to see live music. A lot of different reasons why I think that is. Maybe it's the disposable income of the target demo they don't have $75 to go out and spend on a concert ticket. I think in the '90s we helped kill the urban touring market with free shows at radio stations. Artists would come out and they would do a show, they didn't get paid for it. They only had that one song the radio station was interested in. They dropped the record as soon as they hit the market. And would leave those artists out in the cold in a career sense because once the radio station was no longer interested in neither was the record company. Because development took a back seat it really wasn't about developing it was about getting the hits.
Q. What do you advise to musicians looking to succeed in the industry?
Little: Don't have your homeboy managing you. If your homeboy has read a book, found mentors and studied the industry that's great. You don't have to go to college to do this.
Q. What's on your plate now?
Little: Dice Raw is an artist who starting touring with The Roots and working with them at the age of 15. He did a CD on MCA and pretty much finished up writing the product for his next release. Phenomenal, groundbreaking, unique I absolutely love his work. I'm also working with several other artists in the pop and rock arena. One that's about to be finished Kenli and he's gonna have a phenomenal project as well. Thirteen Even is hard rock band they've already released their first record. They're in the studio actually right now writing songs for their next record. They had good initial sales success, they sold at their shows they've increased their fanbase. The radio station in Philadelphia is interested in embracing them because they see all the hard work they have done. The other artist that I'm working with Steve Lart and The Jealous Type and a new one we just picked up are writing and getting songs together. Aside from that I like to write I wrote a children's book called "Last Night I Dreamt That I Could Fly." I'm learning the parallels of the literary industry and how it works much like the music industry. Because that's a business I don't know. I realize I have more than one gift and more than one talent.
Q. What do you like doing the most?
Little: I like working the most with the artist because of the human element. Helping someone make their dreams come true while you're making yours come true is like a great feeling.
Q. What is your vision?
Little: No one can stop me but me!!!!
